S2EP32-STEMtastic Adventures: Dr. Leslie Grus Talks Privacy, Math, and Mentoring Girls!

Herb: 00:00:19

Today I have the pleasure of introducing Dr. Leslie Gruis.

Dr. Leslie is spent 30 years as a mathematician and intelligence security officer at the National Security Agency, where she helped develop technology solutions that balance national security with civil rights. She later served as U.S. cyber Command and the national at U S Cyber Command and the National Intelligence Council.

Now retired, she writes and speaks on privacy, surveillance and democracy, making complex topics accessible for everyday Americans. Dr. Grus is the author of Privacy Past, Present and Future, the Privacy Pirates and a forthcoming third book.

And she mentors K through 12 STEM students with special focus on middle school girls. This is cybersecurity is a fabulous topic. And how to stay safe on the Internet.

So thank you very much for being here, especially you know where you're coming from. It's a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:01:18

Thank you so much for having this opportunity to speak with you guys today. I'm delighted to be here. Wonderful.

Kristina: 00:01:26

Thank you. And in your bio it said that you like to mentor girls, especially in the STEM area. Let's start there.

Explain to the audience what STEM is because some people aren't quite up to speed on that. And then we'll jump into the other things that we are going to talk about today.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:01:43

So STEM stands for. It's an acronym that stands for science, technology, engineering, and math. And as you probably have read, STEM is all the rage these days.

So there are a lot of programs and activities very much focused on STEM education. A lot of what helps get kids excited about stem, of course, is experiential education.

So that's why you have, for example, for high school students, the first robotics competitions and then for the younger kids, the LEGO league and things like that. So those are some of the kinds of programs that people might be familiar with.

The reason I mention middle school girls is because in the past there's been a lot of research done that talks about how we lose a lot of girls in the STEM pipeline in the middle school years for whatever reason.

Now, I'm not a psychologist, so I wouldn't know, but from what I've read, it's during those adolescent years as girls go through puberty, as they become more socially aware, as all of a sudden they take an interest in boys, that all of a sudden they lose as much affinity for science and technology and math as they had in the past.

So it's my job in life, I've made it my mission in life to be the person that intercedes on behalf of those middle school girls to convince them that they can Indeed, do mathematics. And to show them how it's possible. I am a living, breathing example of a female mathematician that made a career of it.

So I want to erase any ideas they might have in their head that they can't do it so that they can go on. Because so much of technology today is important and underlies the careers these kids are going to encounter tomorrow.

Kristina: 00:03:54

Absolutely. And I can kind of, you know, relate to that story because when I was in middle school, around those ages, I was in those higher math classes.

And then like you said, as we're becoming more aware of other people and other, other situations in our life, all of a sudden it's like, oh, well, you're in that class. Oh, well, you must be a brainiac or something, or you must be kind of nerdy or, you know, just those kinds of terms that are thrown out there.

And then also like, oh, well, maybe I don't want to be in those classes. Maybe, maybe I really don't understand this math stuff after all kind of thing. So I completely understand where you're coming from.

And you're right, we shouldn't do that to any kid. Right. But it does happen, you know, sometimes more for girls than boys, especially in the math areas.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:04:36

That's not to say it doesn't happen for boys. I certainly have boys that age that, you know, I end up working with them because they're having problems in math class.

And before I've even opened my mouth, you can tell from the way they approach class, the way they respond, they're convinced they can't do math.

And so my job in life is not just to teach them the math, but to convince them that they can do it and help build their self confidence so that they can approach these problems without going into that sort of panic that they go into every time somebody says math to them.

Kristina: 00:05:11

And that confidence thing is so critical. I focus on reading a lot when I was in the classroom and same thing, right? This kid's like, oh, well, I can't read because it's hard for me.

And until I built up that confidence that I can do it kind of attitude, right. Reading was difficult for them.

Herb: 00:05:27

So we also worked with growth mindset a lot. And yet. Yet was a very, very strong word for us. Oh, I can't do it yet. And so that was one. So that's something that we did.

So I, I hear a lot of what you're saying. I come at it from a kind of different angle. I'm the out of the box part of this duo.

I Suffered a traumatic brain injury, actually got several of them. The last one was pretty major. Kind of took my life apart. Part putting it back together.

I got into a lot of brain science, a lot of brain chemistry, a lot of the way the brain works. And men and women are very, very similar.

But one of the biggest differences, even though it's only a very small one, is that in general women are more interested in people just a little bit and in general, men are interested in things just a little bit more and so on. The as that kind of goes out, more men kind of go into thing oriented stuff and women tend to go to more people oriented stuff. And that's 10, two.

So it's not a have to and it's not. Again, very successful mathematician, thank you for what you do.

But in general, so how do we encourage the girls that have that aptitude and that drive without necessarily pushing girls who don't want to go into those kind of fields into them when it's not really kind of what they want?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:06:59

So I tutor every grade, every secondary school grade. It really started as a high school kind of tutoring gig.

I thought I was going to be tutoring calculus and then I thought I was going to be tutoring SAT and act.

And then of course it moved from math and physics to English and I guess they thought I was qualified to teach English because I've written a few books. And then of course it grew into history. So I've taught a lot of subjects and I've also taught a lot more than just high school kids.

Now I'm very lucky. Some of my high school kids are very gifted and a lot of my high school kids come from an Asian culture.

So that has a different set of motivators associated with it and a different kind of set of parents associated with it. But there are always kids that are going to have special needs in the sense that perhaps their sabotage has been.

Perhaps their confidence has been sabotaged in fourth grade because some math teacher made a remark that they couldn't add fractions.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:08:13

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:08:14

I had one case where a little girl was going to put be put in a remedial math class and I stopped that from happening. It was actually an interesting story, but the important thing was it didn't happen.

So she doesn't have going forward now that burden to carry around believing that she's not a good reader because in fact she's a terrific reader. She's just not a very good Western test taker. But that's an easily fixed thing once you identify it.

So I've kind of worked with every age group and some kids have special needs, some kids, they come to me diagnosed, some kids come to me undiagnosed. And I have to try to figure it out. And remember I'm not really a school teacher, I'm just a tutor.

So I only know what the parents are comfortable with sharing with me. Right. Sometimes the kids share with me and that's okay.

So sometimes it's a little bit of a puzzle to figure out what it is that's driving this kid and why do they have the beliefs they have. And once you can get to the root of that, you can maybe start to undo some of the negative thoughts they have and, and change their mindsets.

So that kind of, I hope answers your question. Since I'm working with kids from like 3 to 20, I have a few that don't quite get there before they go to college and they go to local schools.

So they're still coming back and that's okay too.

Kristina: 00:09:55

Yeah, excellent. And you're right, I mean we have this full range and everything. So yeah, working with them, where they are to build that confidence.

So the STEM technology or the STEM core, the STEM area. Right. Leads to that technology.

And that's the other thing that we wanted to speak with you about today is that, you know, how, how can we, when we're encouraging kids, kids to be in this area, still be safe? Right?

Because we're, we're picking up on all that technology, all the different Internet sites, all the different things that they need to research and get into. There is so much out there that our kids can get into that our parents don't quite know and they still.

Herb: 00:10:34

Get into trouble because they don't understand privacy. So they're putting stuff out on the Internet that probably should be more private.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:10:42

So, so, so I'll tell you, I had an experience, it was probably about five years ago and it was a friend of my husband's who very proudly put up a picture on social media of his 15 year old daughter, which was fine, but you know how 15 year old girls are, they have a tendency to dress in a certain way to advertise their bodies to not be modest because that's part of their self image, self esteem stuff.

And so I actually made my husband go back to this guy and say, you know, by the way, there are bad people out there on the Internet who are looking for victims.

And when you post a picture of your daughter that looks like that, not that she's not a beautiful girl, but you might want to think about putting something else up that's a little bit more modest and doesn't advertise her body in the way that this particular picture does. That's a really tough conversation to have with another parent. But if not you, who. Who's going to have that conversation?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:11:54

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:11:55

I think every parent needs to sort of take their heart in their hands and say, hey, I noticed this. I'm really delighted for your child. But, you know, there are some really horrible things going on out there.

And did you think about maybe thinking of ways to protect your kid? That's something a grownup did.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:12:14

Right?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:12:14

That's not even the immature judgment of an adolescent that causes that to happen. We could go on. We could spend hours talking about what kids put up on the Internet.

And I often talk to my kids when I'm tutoring about privacy and about social media. I think we've seen a lot of reporting now by psychologists and by social scientists about the negative impact of cell phones when kids have them.

There's several books out on this subject. Cell phones are a terrible distraction in the classroom.

Across public schools in America right now, a lot of schools are enacting cell phone bans, or at least even if the kid has a cell phone, the cell phone has to be off during class.

Where I live in Maryland, in Montgomery county, the new policy for cell phones is off during class for high schoolers and off and stowed away the entire day for middle and elementary school kids.

Herb: 00:13:36

Yeah. Greg Abbott in Texas just signed a law that as of September, there are no more electronic devices allowed in school.

So cell phones, pagers, tablets, any of that, it's not allowed in school as of September. So that's in all of Texas. So, yeah. It's interesting how some of these things are changing right now.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:13:55

And I will say that, you know, that's a tough call, right.

When you're a parent and you have a headstrong and perhaps emotionally volatile child going through those difficult years, the tweens and the early teens and even, you know, as they approach high school and the kid very irrationally says, you're ruining my life. I've got to have a cell phone. All my friends have cell phone. They have the latest and greatest toys. You don't love me.

You don't want me to be popular.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:14:37

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:14:37

It goes on. It's very unpleasant. I can imagine that there's probably a lot of very unpleasant scenes going on in households these days.

And they're huge battles about cellular technology, especially smartphones.

In a way, I get what the kids are saying, I understand that everything when you're that age is about what your friends think of you, you know, finding your place in the world, all that being on social media. But you're really not doing your kid any favors by giving them a smartphone. Okay.

There's a wonderful new book out there by Claire Morell called the Tech Exit. And if you were to sit down and read that book, she basically says you should not give your kid a smartphone. And here are some options.

And it kind of depends on the age. But if you start early by not giving them a phone, then their expectations can perhaps be held under control.

It even talks about almost in a sort of a spiritual sense, about finding and creating a committee of like, finding and creating a community of like minded families who also don't get phones for their kids.

And there's a long discussion about how kids are spending way too much time on cell phones in virtual space, building relationships that are very shallow as opposed to going out, spending time with others. For younger kids, having playtime, right, Learning how to negotiate the human world in person, how do you resolve conflict on the playground?

How do you learn to build a relationship with somebody? What do you do if you hurt somebody's feelings in person is where these deep relationships come from.

We need to be encouraging parents more to get kids to not live in virtual space and to live in the real world and build human relationships. You guys probably know that during COVID we had lots of setbacks for kids. They weren't just academic setbacks either, they were emotional setbacks.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:17:02

Right.

Herb: 00:17:03

And there's a lot. So the extroverted kids who thrive being around people, they were forced to stay home, isolated, and that really messed them up.

But on the opposite side of that, a lot of the introverted kids, where they got to stay home, thrived in that kind of a learning environment. So, you know, again, it doesn't matter what happens. Some people are going to not do so well, Some people are going to do well.

But yeah, in general, Covid was a really bad couple of years for education. A lot of kids were left behind in some really bad ways.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:17:34

Well, and I think, you know, emotional intelligence is also something that we often talk about and think about. And that was sabotage by having everybody online and not learning to get along.

So even now with my kids, my younger kids, if they're good, I'll give them 10 minutes at the end of class to play a game and I'll usually just turn them loose with a game they know and I'll be sitting there Taking notes or working on my workbooks. And they just have to negotiate the rules. They have to know the rules, they have to respect the rules.

If they have a difference of opinion, I'm still listening, but, but I'm not telling them what to do.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:18:16

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:18:17

I'm making them learn how to get along with others in the real world.

Herb: 00:18:21

Yeah, so, so we, we both grew up pre Internet, so we're, we're Gen Xers. I mean, I remember the first cell phones were the size of like bricks and took a car to carry a cell phone around.

So it's like we, we had to exist outside of that. And it's like I grew up in a really small town and I grew up really poor.

So a lot of my friends had lots of toys and the cool bikes and the motorbike and me not so much so that, but there wasn't necessarily a, hey, I want that because they have it. It's like I knew our money situation, so I was like, my friends always had stuff that I wanted, but I never was able to get.

And so I know that that doesn't kill a kid.

Kristina: 00:19:07

Right.

Herb: 00:19:07

I know that a child can survive not having something that they want. And so again, we are raising children, we're not trying to make them our friends.

And if not having a cell phone is more healthy for your child, then it doesn't matter whether they want one or whether they're going to be happy or not. You have to do what's best for your children. And because you know, if you're not, you know, that's the future of humanity.

And so if you're just giving in and they're getting addicted and having bad habits, then where does that leave our future?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:19:46

Well, that is always the parents job, right. Is to, to help them make smart decisions. Right.

And since their brains, since their prefrontal lobes don't mature until well after secondary school, it's up to you guys to put the stop to unconstructive behaviors. Whether it's cell phones or for boys, it's, you know, outdoor adventures and dares and, and things like that.

Or for a daughter, maybe it's clothing that's scanty and makeup or, or whatever it is.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:20:25

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:20:26

It's up to you to still find that, that perfect balance between letting them find their own way, letting them express themselves, but also living within the norms of your community. Right. And raising them with good values.

Kristina: 00:20:44

Exactly. And that's one of the things we talk about a lot with our families is their values. Right. What are your family Values.

How can you help your children understand those values? And how can you live those values so that they get that cohesive message? Right. So let's jump into some tips for our parents.

We want to talk about privacy and keeping our kids safe. What's one or two things that our parents can do with these technology? Devices that will help keep their child's privacy and their family's privacy.

Herb: 00:21:13

So short of taking them away, they're not going to take them away.

Kristina: 00:21:16

What else can they, what can they.

Herb: 00:21:17

Do to make it more safe? If they're not going to go that, go to that.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:21:23

Okay, so, you know, no kid before high school really needs a smartphone. There are dumb phones out there, right?

If your kid really needs a cellular device because it's an important prestige tool and you can't say no to them, then you can give them a dumb phone, which will not necessarily give them Internet access, but it will give them an ability to call, to text. Every phone's different. And I actually have not looked at the technologies lately, but there are dumb phones out there. So that's one option.

From what I'm reading, children are quite ingenious about working around whatever limitations parents put in their place when it comes to technology. So if you think that something like limiting screen time is going to do the trick, you'd be wrong.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:22:19

Right?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:22:20

Because kids are going to fight you every step of the way if it really has to do with their social standing or whatever's driving it. And you're going to spend a lot of your family time having fights about screen time. So it just doesn't stop.

Herb: 00:22:39

Not only the social standing, there's also the dopaminergic effect through your brain system and the addictive nature of, of getting that response back. It's, it's like a hit of dopamine every time that happens. And that's, you know, that's what cocaine gives you, is the dopamine hit.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:22:56

So, and it doesn't teach, it subverts any efforts you might have made to get them to exercise self control. Not that their brains are really ready for it anyway, but, but it just sabotages your success there. So that's not a good option.

If you give them a smartphone and think that you've locked it down, you'd be mistaken.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:23:17

Right?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:23:17

There's a lot of ways that the Internet has, and children have, of getting around any limitations that exist. You may have locked down the phone so that they may only have access to certain sites that you consider acceptable.

And yet advertising, for example, can still get through it still oozes through the cracks and they're getting all sorts of advertising, some of which may be very inappropriate for them. The law, as always, lags behind when it comes to technology.

So for example, the Children's Online Privacy Protection act, which was passed back in the 90s, only addresses the privacy of children up to 13. There's been a lot of debate in Congress about revising that law, but we haven't gotten there yet.

The other law that is still on the books that I think needs to be re examined is this very popular discussion about Section 230 of the Communications Decency act, which basically says that Internet platforms do not have the obligations that publishers have and these platforms cannot be sued for liability for any content to which the platforms.

Herb: 00:24:46

Yeah, the platforms took that law and perverted it. That was supposed to be a law for the isp for the actual where you get online, these platforms that are using that law.

It wasn't designed that way and Congress really needs to close that loophole badly. So, yeah, kind of completely understand where you're going with that.

So again, it wasn't the platforms that was supposed to be protected by 230, it was the ISPs. So because. Because they don't have control over where you go, the platforms do have control over their content. So.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:25:22

Exactly. And I think if you kind of look at it, there's a huge battle being waged in Washington right now about this.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:25:32

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:25:33

There's a reason that all the CEOs of these big platform companies now have houses in Washington D.C. right.

It is so much more convenient to have a place to lay your head if you have to go give testimony before Congress or if you're having dinner at the White House tomorrow. Right. And so the amount of lobbying that is going into this issue is absolutely remarkable. And the question is, where will it come down?

And remember, this is a feature of our democracy. If you talk about, if you talk to the regulators and you say, okay, Federal Trade Commission, what's your job in life?

And they'll say, well, our job in life is to make sure there's free competition and no monopolies and to protect consumers. Right. And these are conflicting priorities that they have to address.

And so it's very hard when people really believe that any sort of control or regulation on big businesses, like big tech businesses, is going to inhibit innovation. And that's always been the argument.

So I think we're going to need to think a little bit harder about what do we really want and what do we want for our Families, Right. What's really important to the average American? Absolutely.

Kristina: 00:27:00

So when we're encouraging our children to do other things. So there's a technology part of stem. Right. But let's get them into the science or the math or the engineering.

What are some ways that you help that encourage them to be in those areas of the STEM arena?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:27:19

Okay, so one thing that we're seeing is now that everything has digital delivery in secondary schools these days. They've really, in a lot of ways taken the fun out of science. A lot of my kids do not have science labs anymore.

They have online physics lab labs, which strikes me as one of the most bizarre things in the entire world. Right. Because you know, what did Maria Montessori say?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:27:48

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:27:48

It's experiential education.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:27:51

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:27:51

They need to touch and feel it. They need to see it.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:27:55

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:27:56

And so I will stop when I'm tutoring students and I will try to give demonstration or if we're doing 3D objects, I have a little box of plastic 3D objects that I get out and I could keep care less whether my third grader is playing with them or my calculus student who's learning how to calculate volumes is playing with it. I still hand it to them and tell them to hold it in their hand and turn it around and look at it.

So that kind of experiential education is really, really important. So things like First Robotics is wonderful if you have dedicated mentors that are there. Unfortunately, First Robotics is kind of expensive.

So in order to participate in that, you actually have to include some of the non STEM majors in that consideration. The kids that say they want to be a business person or an entrepreneur.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:28:56

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:28:57

Give them an opportunity to do some fundraising in order to understand where is that $5,000 entry fee going to come from. From.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:29:05

Right?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:29:05

So there are opportunities all the way around, just like a little teeny weeny company for kids in those kinds of endeavors. There's also, for, I think it's seventh grade and up, rocketry challenges that people can get involved with.

So if you like that kind of stuff, I can't tell you how many kids have come to me and said, oh, I want to work for NASA when I grow up. And I said, well, okay, so you can get involved in one of the rocketry challenge exercises. A lot of my kids are getting into programming as well.

And so that's another way that they can learn some skills, but then they can actually exercise them and see the results of the skills they develop. So for little kids, it's whatever I can cobble together at the moment that they happen to be interested in it. I never cease to be amazed.

At our house right now, we have three new kittens and I watch them play and I think about the fact that they are rehearsing their life skills for being grown ups.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:30:12

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:30:12

Just like a small child.

Remember when you had a child in a high chair the first time they took whatever was on their tray and knocked it to the floor just to see what would happen.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:30:26

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:30:26

It's fascinating to them now, of course, it becomes, becomes a really annoying game at a certain point because they want to get a rise out of mom and dad. Right.

Herb: 00:30:36

Some people make careers out of that.

Kristina: 00:30:38

I remember saying, if you knock it off, I'm not going to pick it up anymore several times. And guess what? I still picked it up after a while.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:30:47

I remarried when my son was very little and I asked my new husband to fill up a cup with some juice for my son and he said, well, how much do I put in the cup? And I said, as much as you want to clean up off the floor when you get done. Right. I love it. Right. So you kind of have to anticipate.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:31:06

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:31:07

Where they're going with this. Right. But it's really remarkable if you look at that, whether it's kids or kittens.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:31:13

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:31:14

All the things they're practicing, because these are things that are going to be useful to them as grown ups.

Kristina: 00:31:20

They don't know it because it's programmed into their DNA. Right. But it's the same thing with our kids in the classroom.

You have to give them real life rehearsals if they're working on a difficult physics concept with kinematics. I will get out pencils, rulers, boxes, anything I have in the classroom so we can do a real experiment.

So they have the experiential education, which is going to make a lot more sense to them than some online view of what's going on in the world.

Herb: 00:31:55

View into privacy. What expectation do our children have for privacy? How can they protect it? How can they learn to value that in what's happening?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:32:08

So adults talk about privacy with their children, even as preschoolers, when we talk about good touch and bad touch, Right. You have physical privacy of yourself that.

Kristina: 00:32:25

You should be entitled to.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:32:27

Right.

Kristina: 00:32:27

So you've already built that into what they do.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:32:32

I think sometimes you might have instances when children are little that small children have a tendency to repeat things that adults say that maybe mom and dad didn't necessarily want shared with the entire world.

Herb: 00:32:48

That never happens. That never happens.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:32:51

I Actually ran into a friend, and he had brought his son from college. His son was home from college, and his son is on the spectrum and. Brilliant kid. Completely brilliant kid.

I was trying to talk to this kid because he has a real problem.

Kristina: 00:33:10

In interacting with individuals. So I try to model good behaviors with him.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:33:15

And I said. So I said, your mom's not here tonight. I'm sorry not to see her. I said, how come she's not here? And he said, he's probably about 20 now.

He said, she didn't want to come.

Kristina: 00:33:28

I said, okay, Right. That's kind of like, for somebody on the spectrum, that should be expected as an appropriate response. It's usually something that grownups don't say.

They'll make an excuse.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:33:44

Know.

Kristina: 00:33:44

It's more like something a little kid would say because there is no filtering of information about what social also said.

Herb: 00:33:53

With that hard edge, with. With no malice or any outward reason.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:33:59

No, it's just a fact.

Herb: 00:34:00

It's just the way they talk. Yeah. It comes across sometimes angry or. And it's like nuts. Normal.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:34:07

Right.

So sometimes you may have a conversation with your child, even when they're little, and say, you know, I know we talk about this at home, but this is private family business.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:34:19

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:34:19

Maybe it's money problems or whatever it is. This is private family business, and it would be really great if you wouldn't talk about it with other people.

I think the roots of privacy are there even from a very young age. But we forget to keep that up. Right.

So just as when I was a teenager and many girls considered their diaries as the most private thing in the entire world. So now is the cell phone to kids.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:34:57

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:34:58

So for every kid that comes and tells me that privacy is dead and it doesn't exist anymore, I'll say, fine, unlock your phone. I'd like to scroll through all your chat messages with all your friends. And I usually get a pretty violent response there.

I say, okay, well, that's privacy. I said, and you have an expectation that you have privacy on your cell phone. And privacy is really important.

And if they're old enough, if they're like 15 and they're headed for US history class or they're in US history, then they get the whole long lecture about the country being set up with certain civil rights that were held back by the Bill of Rights and. And subsequent amendments. And the reason we have those civil rights is to control the power of government.

So if we don't have civil rights, if we don't have privacy, then we're Basically undermining our democracy is kind of the.

Herb: 00:35:56

I love that you said that. I'll just leave it there. I just love that you said that.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:36:01

So I try to drive it home in a way that it's relevant to them.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:36:07

Yeah, right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:36:08

So if you look at my second book, the Privacy Pirates, for example, there's a storyline that's pulled through that about a 14 year old girl and some of the privacies she faces and her family face over the course of the entire story.

And each time I tell a story and I illustrate, for example, one of the early stories, somebody takes her head and puts it on a scantily clad adolescent girl's body and then distributes it to all the peers, all her peers in school.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:36:41

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:36:42

Or posts it to social media and she's just completely horrified. And her father, the attorney comes to realize that legally there's just really nothing he can do about that.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:36:53

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:36:53

Those are meant to be learning moments for all of us, whether it's a grown up reading the book or sharing the ideas with a younger child is that these kinds of things can happen and it's really scary. So think before you type and send.

Herb: 00:37:10

So I've lived in both a really small town and a really big town and you said, you said a word a little while ago that I want to bring back because it's expectation of privacy. So when you grow up in a small town, if someone comes up at your driveway, it's like, oh, they're coming up to the house.

It's like there's this sense of this is your space in a big city you have to create that expectation of privacy that across the fence that they can't see you because it's like your houses, your apartments. So there is this expectation of privacy that they're going to know, but they're going to pretend it doesn't happen.

With the cell phones, you said that there is an expectation of privacy. How much privacy do we really have on our cell phones? How can people get a hold of that and ruin your privacy?

And is the cell phone, is it just an expectation or is there really privacy controls there?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:38:15

first came into being in the: 1840

This innovative technology as it began to permeate society.

And remember at the time the telegraph came into place, one, there wasn't a telegraph that went everywhere and two, we didn't even have railroads really to speak of yet.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:38:51

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:38:52

So it was a paradigm changing kind of in invention. And that paradigm change accelerated with the arrival of the telephone.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:39:01

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:39:01

In the: 1870

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:39:04

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:39:04

And then things just kept going along that way. Right. Then we had wireless technology, right.

Radio waves with Mr. Marconi at the turn of the 20th century, which eventually led to radio and broadcast radio and radio communications.

lian sector. Then starting in: 1951

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:39:54

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:39:55

st computers in government in: 1951

And yet Starting in the: 1950

n and on. And it wasn't until: 1967

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:40:46

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:40:46

t was finally ratcheted up in: 1974

Herb: 00:41:05

The Constitution is supposed to limit the government, not limit the people.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:41:10

Yes, it. Yes it is. Yes, it is. And that's why we have the Privacy Act.

There were laws put in place having to do with telegraph, telephone and then radio limitations on citizens information that appeared on those.

Kristina: 00:41:31

ith all this technology is by: 1934

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:41:53

Understand that the people who are delivering this technology need to have access to the information on the line because they have to make sure they're providing a certain quality of service. Service.

Kristina: 00:42:04

And they need to be able to repair it.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:42:07

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:42:08

But anybody else that taps into that.

Kristina: 00:42:10

Information, that's against the law.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:42:13

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:42:13

So there has been a long history of this in our law, but unfortunately law always lags behind technology.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:42:25

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:42:26

So those laws still exist, but there are always nuances to how they're implemented. When they were passed, your information traveled primarily on a wire. Today, that's not necessarily true.

Kristina: 00:42:48

It could travel on fiber optic. It could travel from cell phone tower to cell phone tower. It could do a satellite hop.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:43:00

There's a lot of moving pieces here, a lot of contingencies that you have to think about. So the law is still there. Sometimes it's hard to know whether we really subscribe to its intent as opposed to the way it is written.

You are still entitled to a right of privacy on telephone calls, but the.

Kristina: 00:43:25

Rules change with the Internet.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:43:29

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:43:29

It's not as cut and dried. The Internet, in a way, kind of.

Kristina: 00:43:33

Upended everything, Kind of like the telegraph and, or the telephone upended everything. And that's why you had new laws like the Communications Decency act, of which section230 is a part. But again, the law always lags behind.

I think the funny thing when you.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:43:55

Ask me about privacy is people are happy to share personal details of their lives every day in social media. And I'm just stunned by the amount of information they are willing to put out there.

Surely they must realize that anybody can see that, and I guess that's their intent. But that means anybody can see that, right?

Kristina: 00:44:22

The government can see that. The enemy can see that. The person that you hate can see that. Your opponent in the election can see that.

People, I think, just, they don't think about that.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:44:37

I'm kind of a private person.

Herb: 00:44:38

I've been doing an online diary.

Every, every day I kind of go online and talk about my recovery from brain damage and the, the highs and the lows and the good parts and the bad parts. So I'm out there.

So I've, I've, I've given that privacy away intentionally in an effort that hopefully I can help other people kind of going through some of the stuff that I went through.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:45:01

And that's, that's good.

Herb: 00:45:03

You have a lot of stuff that I don't say in that and I do keep private as well. So.

Kristina: 00:45:09

And I just like to wrap this back around to parents who are posting pictures of their kids like you were saying. Right.

So let's talk about those parents who, first day of school, last day of school, those boards that say, oh yeah, my kid goes to this school and they're this year old and da, da, da, da.

It's like, yes, it's awesome to share that and think about what kind of knowledge you're giving away about your child that might later be used against them in a credit report. Or something else. Because if people have that information then those are like security questions for later in life kind of thing.

So you know, parents really need to think share, but don't over share.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:45:52

Right. I think another sort of distressing thing we're seeing is the adoption of school issued technology, whether it's laptops or whether it's tablets.

So and I think the school issued technology issue, this has almost become to some people's thinking and entitlement.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:46:14

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:46:14

My kid should be entitled to having a computer issued by their school so that they can compete on the same basis as all the other students.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:46:30

Right?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:46:31

Yeah, there are a lot of problems, or let me put it this way, I have a lot of privacy problems with school issued computers. Okay.

If my kid was school age, which he's not, he's grown, but if he was school age, I would be the luddite that showed up that said I'm not signing anything for this computer and I don't want you to give him a computer and I will buy him the kind of computer with the kind of access that I want and it's up to you to figure out how he's going to participate in your curriculum.

So I would be a complete pain about this, but I think people really should think really hard before you sign away your and your child's rights to privacy by signing for a computer like this.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:47:22

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:47:23

In the privacy agreement that you sign basically in order to get this computer and it includes other stuff like I'll take care of this computer, I'll try not to drop this computer, I'll try to use it appropriately. I understand that the school resides, I understand the school reserves the right to monitor anything I do on this computer.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:47:48

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:47:48

All those things you have to sign up to that before they give it to you. And I wouldn't sign that right. Because do you really want the, the school to have the power to monitor your kid online?

I mean, and where does it stop?

Herb: 00:48:03

Turn on the video camera on the computer remotely.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:48:06

And there's a horrifying story out there that was made into an Amazon miniseries about a kid and that happened to him. The, the school turned on his school computer when he was at home in his bedroom and took pictures.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:48:22

Okay.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:48:22

ll the way back, I believe in: 2011

They may also be monitoring your kids performance on the computer. I get that every school has to monitor the performance of kids in some sense. You got to know if the kid is Going to be ready for the next grade.

Right. But how much are they monitoring it? And what way are they. Are they monitoring response time? Keystrokes? You know, what are they.

Because they're not actually telling me.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:48:59

Right.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:49:01

And a lot of parents are too shy to ask. Perhaps they think, well, my kid's got.

Kristina: 00:49:06

To have this computer because they got to be able to compete with all the other kids, so this is my entitlement. And yet they should be really thinking.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:49:13

Carefully about whether they even want their.

Kristina: 00:49:15

Kid to have that computer.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:49:17

Right.

Kristina: 00:49:17

Thing I want to add to that is, have you asked your school recently what their digital citizenship program looks like, how they teach safety on those computers before they give them to the child? And I was a tech person at my school for 15 years, and when I left school district, it was not consistent at all.

And we're still finding schools that don't have a consistent program to help arm your child to be ready for the. The, you know, the power that they're handing them in these computers. Yeah. To ask those questions. Dr. Leslie, thank you.

This has been a riveting, fascinating conversation. Unfortunately, our time is winding up. Is there anything that we didn't get to that you really wanted to speak to our parents about today?

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:50:08

No.

I just hope more parents will model privacy behaviors for their kids and be a little bit more aw of the things that they are giving away by participating so wholeheartedly on the Internet.

I'm just one little tutor who tries to make kids aware of privacy issues, who tries to teach them how to be discerning consumers of digital information. With so much misinformation and disinformation out there, it's a really tough right now for them.

I think, you know, school librarians are there and they can help.

So I would certainly encourage kids to check in with their school librarians and ask them to help in online research and how to determine the authenticity and reliable reliability of sources. So there's another resource in a school that's available to you.

Kristina: 00:51:10

Perfect. Thank you so much. Yes, that is a great way to end right there.

Another tool for our parents and to go ask those questions and have our kids ask those librarians. Perfect. Love it. Thank you.

Herb: 00:51:21

So thank you for being here today, Leslie. It was a pleasure having you today. So many people know about these problems, but so very few people actually speak up and try and help.

And here you are. You're actually tutoring children. You're spreading the word out through programs like ours.

And so I really appreciate you and how you're trying to make the world a better, a better place. To me, that makes you a hero. So thank you for joining us here today.

Thank you for trying to help our children and to make, to make the world a better place.

Dr. Leslie Gruis: 00:51:49

Thank you so much for your time.

Kristina: 00:51:51

You are very, very welcome. Okay, family and friends, you know what to do.

It is time to, like, share, review and make sure you're giving out this good information to other families to help make children happy, healthy and successful. Until next time. Bye for now.

Herb: 00:52:06

For now.